Dr. Olisa Agbakoba, a Senior Advocate of Nigeria, SAN, and a delegate to the just concluded National Conference spoke with media men recently. PAUL SANUSI of our Lagos bureau was there for Nigerian Pilot Sunday.
What is your take on recently concluded National Confab?
The challenge I think will be is, where we take it. In a country that has multiethnic, religious and linguistic fault lines, there is no way you can get perfect result. For me, I was initially deeply taken aback by the deep level of divisions caused between North and the South.
Also, the consensus that the Southern people built in relation to an issue of regionalism was even opposed by Lagos, so you can even see how difficult the problem was. Lagos opposed it and Ebonyi State opposed it too. Ebonyi said they are the least developed state in the South-East, and if there is regionalism, they will be affected. I said this to underscore a very important point that the problem in Nigeria is not about ethnic nationalism, the problem is about development and the national conference, will hopefully, if the present Implementation Committee brings up good recommendations, even though I am not sure I agree with that, I thought that our recommendations would have gone straight to referendum. Because when politicians are brought to review our reports there is likelihood that in their own interest they will not do what Nigerians want, so that is my concern. At least full marks should be given to the President because he is the one that have gone fairest ever since Babangida began deceiving us back in the 90s, Obasanjo himself tried to do it, so we must give praise where praise is due.
This president has surprised even me that he has been one who has been the most candid in the debate. But I think he needs to think too carefully whether this Implementation Committee is the right vehicle. I would have thought that the right vehicle is to put it to a national referendum.
You all know that there may be an earthquake in the United Kingdom, the UK is supposed to be our father, yet Scotland wants to leave and as it is going there may be no United Kingdom. So, the time has come for us all to agree that if we can stay together there is nothing strictly correct by saying that Nigeria must continue to exist. In fact, by saying that Nigeria must continue to exist and forcing it on our throat we rebel against it. What is the response of the British Prime Minister to Scotland wishes to leave, he hoist the Scottish flag on his house, he goes to Scotland persuading, it is not all about force. The secretary of the federal government said national conference is about conference but the no go area is to talk about Nigeria dissolution. There is nothing sacrosanct about the existence of Nigerian, nothing sacrosanct, if we cannot exist together, nothing bad in that. I personally feel that Nigeria as a large country has the natural, human capital to be Africa’s giant but is not by force, and we can point to the example of our colonial master. The Scotland is saying that we are not getting a good deal in United Kingdom, so why should we be United Kingdom; the answer by the Prime Minister of UK is to say we would. There are two men in the matter, Alister and David Cameron, Alister is for Scotland to go, and David is to stay with UK. Alister said if we are to stay all the oil in the North Sea’s are ours, David sees that, that was an attractive argument, he said he would divulge more power to Alister. But in Nigeria all we hear is force. Why must we stay together? If we are all collectively in our various corners able to be individual countries, may be that is the way to go. Even though, I see the strength in being one big country. The other interesting thing is Spain. There they have the Catalans. Spain has six separate entities, none see eye-to-eye. Spain was originally colonised by the Moores, who are from Morocco. So there is a lot of Islamic influence in Spain, those are called Andalusians. Spain also has another set that operates like Boko Haram, they are called Etah, and people around Madrid are related to the French and they are called the Castilians. These ones dominate Spanish life. Catalans are the ones that supply 30 per cent of revenue, but the Castilians in 1675 subjugated the Catalans and till today, there is a divide among the Castilians and Catalans, this I became familiar when I was touring Spain. So the answer was to create autonomous region, that is only way Nigeria can work. So, there is a president of Catalonia, he is in charge of all Catalans. Also there is president of Southeast, he is in charge of all the issues concerning the Southeast; and so on. The Nigeria problem has to be confronted frontally, we are absolutely divided by many things, and unless we understand that division, we cannot solve the problem. But like I said, there is no big reason why we must be together, and if we cannot be together let us agree to part in peace…. I have to also say, generally, the North did not see the national conference as the South saw it. The South saw it as a groundbreaker, the North saw it as just advisory, the President did not authorise us, on many occasion we have to go back to President’s speech. The President said he would expect us to create a new constitution for him to look at, so there was that scepticism. I do not know if you have been on an issue where people see it the same issue, one green, one yellow, that is how various geopolitical zones see the Nigerian challenge from different perspectives, and how to narrow that was massive challenge. What I think is left now, is a bold decision to deal with some of the critically challenging problems such as the resource control problem. I will suggest that the President should do what Obama did when the Republican Congress wanted to frustrate the health care policy. He appealed directly to the people, so our President should appeal directly to Nigerians. I will still appeal to the President to get Nigerians Behind his programs, and if he does that, I think that that might make the difference.
Just recently, Nigeria was greeted with a deadly disease called ‘Ebola’. How would you react to the efforts on Nigeria government in containing the virus?
I give full marks to both the federal government and the government of Lagos state for their framework to contain the decease. But this ought to be a wake-up call that we need to introduce a very strong national health care system in the mode of what Obama did. We need something on ground that will make Nigeria health system a world class. The Indians had done it. We have top doctors here, but we are not committing enough resources to deal with these major issues. The tribute we pay to Ameyo, who happened to be my doctor, she was a very sound doctor, is that her refusal to let one of the patient to go.
Nigerians are still waiting for the return of Chibok Girls who are in captivity of Boko Haram, How can we get these girls rescued?
The general principle is that you do not elevate tyrants by negotiating with them on ransom that is the general principle. But I do know that pragmatically, ways have been found even by Americans to exchange prisoners. Americans just did that not too long ago. I would like to see robust framework by which the girls can come up free, even if it meant us giving up something, provided that thing is not inimical to national security. So, I am prepared to explore a way of free our girls because their lives are so precious to us in return for what the Boko Haram reasonably want. The military has not done enough, and that is why I said that Alex Badeh has failed in his commission and should be relieved.
How will you classify Nigeria economy, and government policy on economy?
We can be classified as one of the strongest emerging economy in the world that is a very deep statement that your plane flies without a pilot and reaches its destination. Because the Nigeria’s economy process is like an autopilot and those parts of this are Malaysia, Indonesia and Turkey, and I see how through my legal, developmental works and observation as a keen political person, how investors are coming in because the market is attractive. Dangote said that is not going to take a kobo out of the country, he is correct. The return on investment doing business in Nigeria in spite of the challenges and constrains, is about 30 to 40 per cent and in UK is about two per cent. Nigeria is one of the few nations in the world where saving money is a business, it is a disaster, and sometimes you weep for Nigeria. The Bank of England reduced the interest rate to 0.5 per cent, nobody wants to save, people wants to spend, nobody wants to put money in bank because the return is too small, in Nigerian the interest rate on saving is high. That is why the public officials put money in the bank not that any money is missing. That is the type of country that we are, where economic policy encourages lazy people, we are not going to grow. Our economic policy is defective, our political policy is defective, the two add up a very crime. Despite this country is said to be a strong emerging economy, Politics, economy development have a massive impact on the nation.
Finally, Nigerians will be going to polls in 2015, to elect new leaders. Do you foresee any change in government? And what can you say about opposition parties in the country, and how prepared are we?
It is a great disappointment that the clap seems to be happening but with one hand. Do you understand what I mean by that? I do not see two hands. Am not here to say what I did not see, at this my small age, I will like to speak directly and truthfully. I can only see one hand that claps, and if it only one hand, the clap will not be good. So, President Jonathan is not facing opposition. He needs to face opposition, he needs to be challenged by issues, if he (President Jonathan) is not challenged by issues, the All Progressive Congress, APC, is simply not a party. It is a party that is waiting to take power that is all and that is the truth. That is why Nuhu Ribadu crossed from APC to the PDP. When I heard it, I did not believe it. How can you be in APC and crossed to another party? How do you cross parties? So, the President is clapping with one hand, and he needs strong opposition. So the call will be for the principle of multi pluralism to take place in Nigeria. Because, when you have two strong teams you are likely to have a strong result, but right now President Jonathan is clapping with one hand, and as I see it, unless we are all telling lies, I do not see the opposition. The APC are fighting each other, there is a clear Southwest APC, there is North APC, I do not know if the North wing of APC and Southwest wing of APC will work together, I do not see that happening. APC has missed the road by seeking Aso Rock rather than seeking Nigerians. Seek ye, first Nigerians and all else shall be added. The party is just seeking Aso rock. APC should change its business model, it should look for people and then use the people to lay claim to Aso rock and not to just be looking at Aso rock and forget about the people. But the PDP with all its challenges seems to be the only act in town, and that is terrible in a country of 160 million people, that is terrible, the result of 2015 general election as for me is predictable. This leads me to the next issue, which is how can we get around our poverty ridden country when we have a lot of resources, a lot of assets but are not properly deployed and because our politicians are not interested in the issues. A politician is interested in how many people who would support him because he wishes to win election not the issue that benefit the people. So, Nigerians are still not part of the equation. The lesson I learnt in my trip is how strong the people are. Do you know that there is a party called UPKEEP led by the gregarious Nick Faraji, he has racist agenda but he presented as if Labour Party is very soft on immigration. The Conservative is also very soft, so he wins the largest bloc of votes in European Union, but he is doing so because in truth the penetration of the UK economy by the East Europeans. Initially, at the end of the cold war, it was very interesting to lure East European with EU passport, now what is happening to the UK economy is that the East Europeans: the Polish, Romania, and the rest are overrunning them. But what struck me in Nick Faraji is that he has taken his case to the people and rightly or wrongly, the general election may be lost by David Cameron and a new Prime Minister may emerge, they can forecast this because they can see the trend. And what excites me about their politics, even though I said as a black man I would not be happy to see Nick Faraji, but if I was a white Englishman, I would be cheering for him, and right now he is the single most popular English politician that is behind Mayor Boris Johnson. And this two are tapping into emotional needs of their people and our politicians don’t do that. Our politicians do not create the issues which would excite the public. This is because votes do not count. We ought to find a way, I regret that we in the civil society have lost some of our bites, don’t blame us because our strength was to confront the military, I wish we had a way to challenge the competition to say, if you are not popular person why should you stand election? There are several people who have been to jail that are public officeholders this is because, our vote does not count, that is why they are there. That is going to be very insightful for 2015, giving that PDP is clapping with one hand, giving that there is no issues in politics, the result is going to be for PDP all around. Let us look around the world and ask whether what we see happening at ISIS, whether what we see in Yemen, whether our Nigerian intelligence and military infrastructures are doing what they are to do. Speaking for myself, if I were the Commander-in Chief, I would dismiss the Chief of Defence Staff. If you lose command, there is only one result in the army and that is dismissal. Because if the President fails to send a strong signal when a mission is not accomplished, then the strength of command will weaken. In the army, it is obedience to the superior order. How can you have soldiers carrying our own equipment into Cameroon and running away? It tells you that the army is degraded, and the only way the Boko Haram problem can be resolved, is by a resolute decapitation of the leadership. We have to realise that the Boko Haram is copying the tactics of ISIS. ISIS declared caliphates in Iraq and Syria, Boko Haram also declared it here and we are eating ice cream. This is most serious challenge facing Nigeria, and the only way is for the President to send the strongest possible message that enough is enough. First, is to say that the military high command has failed in his duty and should be relieve of his appointment immediately. I mean if you do not do well in football, as we all know, you are put on the bench. I take nothing from Alex Badeh being a nice man but the point is that if the mission has not been accomplished, there has to be consequences. If there is no consequence then nothing will change, there is going to be consequence fort failure. Boko Haram is serious, we have failed, we need to try new tactics, and the new tactics is to completely decree them. When we decree them, we will see that everything will be over.