What has your experience in the business of law making?
Lawmaking at the House of Representatives is more exciting, as a matter of fact; more challenging; more people, that is, the number there is almost three to one to the Senate. There were more views and it was tougher convincing over three hundred people and it is not like everything goes. No! You have to work and win over people and it was quite exciting and challenging.
How do you assess the quality of laws being turned out by your colleagues in the National Assembly?
The lawmakers are doing their best; even though, out there, there are more obsolete and mundane laws that need to be dusted and panel beat into conformity with contemporary exigencies. You will find out that the plant quarantine law, for example, was a 1964 law; even the Aviation law; several other laws, even the secrecy Act of the 50s. Those are legislations that need to be dusted and brought to modern conformity.
They are better now, than they were before, because, first, we have a good mix of experienced, qualified and seasoned persons; like in the Senate, we have more former governors and deputy governors now than ever before. We have more people who were in the House of Representatives before, who have now found themselves in the Senate. We also have former speakers of the various state Houses of Assembly who are now in the House of Representatives or in the Senate. So, bye-and large, we have more people who have had some cognate experience than any other time before; so, the quality of law making is decisively improved.
Experience over the years has shown that there is corruption in the National Assembly. Do you share the same view as chairman of the anti-graft Agencies in the senate?
The Farouk Lawan matter is a criminal matter. The matter is between the Police and the Court and whatever they tell us is what we will accept as the true status of the case. On Dimeji Bankole, he surrendered himself to the law enforcement agencies, thereby showing that nobody is above the law. That was a good example that he showed.
How do you assess the Anti-graft war in Nigeria?
I am not satisfied with the anti-corruption war in Nigeria. Both institutionally and operationally, I am not satisfied. In the first place, when we came onboard as members of this Committee, we had the noble desire to exit Nigeria out of the target group of Financial Action Task Force, having been placed on observation and target for the previous two years; we tried to look at it, observed the deficiencies that attracted the placement of Nigeria on the target group and tried to work towards meeting them as a vehicle for exiting Nigeria. First and foremost was the anti- money laundering law which has been amended and has given us a pass mark; then the terrorism Bill and the terrorism financing Bill which has also been amended? However, the tall one of having an independent and autonomous financial intelligence Unit is what we are working on and, as a matter of fact, I have tried to fast-track the process. The Committee of the Senate sponsored it. Let me call it a private member bill; or a bill for an act to establish financial intelligence Unit. The advantages are quite obvious. Part of it will be to meet up the international requirements and standards, as a way of exiting the financial embargos and sanctions. Apart from adding to the credibility of the information that will be taken by the FIA, it will enable the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission, EFCC, to concentrate on operations and enforcement. Right now, the chairman of the EFCC goes round the whole world, doing the job of FIU. That is not proper. He is supposed to be here to look at what is happening and provide leadership for arrests, prosecution and the rest of them.
How do you see the call for strengthening of anti-graft agencies in the country?
Well, I was opposed to the proposed strengthening of anti-graft agencies, but I have decided to let go, on the condition that the merger of the anti-corruption agencies to strengthen them does not translate to retrenching people. I thought that we should give it a trial, to see if that will improve their performance; but, beyond that, I want to say that the problems with the anti-graft agencies are both institutional and operational.
Institutional, in the sense that the EFCC, as it is presently constituted is just like another arm of the Nigerian Police Force. Out of about one thousand, two hundred and fifty people (1,250), seven hundred (700) of them are policemen. This has dampened even the enthusiasm of the international donor agencies because it is like funding another Nigerian Police Force. That has also stagnated all the graduates that were employed and trained as Cadets, because, right now, all the heads of departments in EFCC are Policemen. That has affected their ‘promotability’; that has affected employment opportunities. I believe that those are institutional problems that need to be tackled. By the way, who even said that it is only the Police that have the rare knowledge of fighting corruption? There is no law that says it must be a Police; yes, Section 4 of the Police Act says that they are empowered to arrest, investigate and prosecute. You can have a few of them for the purposes of arrest, but to have 700 of them is definitely unacceptable. What that also means is that as it is now, the Policemen take their pay from the Police Force and also take allowances from the EFCC. Such allowances that should have been used to employ people, you use them in giving people who are just out there on a Jamboree. I think, that is not right. That is not fair. Secondly, I believe that the resources given to the EFCC are not properly applied. I believe that EFCC needs to put in more efforts in training their legal officers because the bane of the fight against corruption is not the absence of petitions. Enough petitions are generated. It is not the absence of prosecution. Quite a number of people get taken to Courts, but the substance of the cases is not water-tight and not provable. They are so watery that those who are accused, who pay for the best lawyers easily capitalize on technicalities and get off the hook. EFCC should be restructured. It is possible that there could be some judicial manoeuvrings. It is possible because of respect for fundamental human rights. The Judiciary does not just fast-track anti-corruption cases because they are criminal cases. We have to live with that because those are the requirements and prescriptions that have to be obeyed. I will rather go with the proposal of the former chief Justice of Nigeria who proposed that we dedicate certain courts for corruption cases trial. The Judiciary is a separate arm of government and should be independent.
What is your take on the proposed Agency to monitor anti-graft agencies?
No! I do not think that we need that. We should improve on the oversight functions. Conscientisation, advocacies and proper education of citizens on holding public office holders accountable. We must partner with the media and civil society. When you have a robust Civil Society, they mobilize in the fight against corruption.
NFIU Autonomy Bill
The Nigerian Financial Intelligence Unit, NFIU, was set up as part of the efforts of the Federal Government in combating money laundering, and the financing of terrorist activities in Nigeria. The aim may not be fully achieved if it does not operate independently. NFIU was set up as a precondition for the removal of Nigeria from the Financial Action Task Force, FATF, list of Non-cooperation countries and territories, NCCTs. We have sponsored a Bill for its autonomy. We are taking steps to conscientise Nigerians on the implications. One of the steps is discussing with people like you, who can tell the world what we are doing and why we are doing it so they understand the essence of the NFIU autonomy Bill. We intend to undertake visits to media organizations, invite stakeholders for briefs, public hearings, etc.
There have been calls for reviewing EFCC Budget. Do you think the Agency needs increased funding?
Yes, I had thought that EFCC was underfunded, until I got the details of the budget of the EFCC. When I looked at the specifics proper, I found out that sufficient provisions are made for the EFCC. Funds are available for training and retraining. Sufficient funds are also provided for other important activities, as well as general operations. Funds are adequately provided, but the results we get are a little bit disappointing. Even if it is not adequately funded, the much that is given to them is not being properly utilized.
How do assess the security situation in Plateau state?
The situation in my state is better now. It is improved because the Special Task Force is handling the matter now. They are more accountable. They give reports on the level and number of casualties. The confidence building process is now on. They are more assessable. They have dedicated lines, so you can reach them. Their response has been swift and good. The governor cannot be complicit, as speculated. There is no way a sitting governor will be involved in such a thing. People are not being fair to him.
Do you think the present number of security Agencies in the country is adequate enough to tackle insecurity in Nigeria?
The problem of security is so large that you cannot leave it in the hands of security agents alone. We have about one hundred and fifty million (150million) Nigerians. We have less than four hundred thousand (400,000) Policemen. The number is inadequate. But, come to think of it, our deliberate strategy of what we call regime security instead of national security is the reason why we keep having security challenges. Even on the less that 400,000 Policemen, more than ten thousand (10,000) of them are taken off their bits and shared to Politicians to provide security. That is not fair. Again, I think that the issue of national security is everybody’s business. Policemen are ill equipped, ill-trained and underpaid. State Police can also help. If you have State Police, where you have local people who know the terrain and know everybody, given the responsibility, it will go a long way.
Do you share the view in some quarters that there is corruption in the Public Service?
I have my reservations about the call for the sack of permanent Secretaries and other senior Civil Servants in the public Service. Some Permanent secretaries are not corrupt. There are some level three-to-seven (3-7) public servants that have more government money than Permanent Secretaries. If you talk about corruption in the Civil Service, my recommendation will be: block where you have leakages and people facilitating these things check-meted, rather than chasing away people. When you chase a set of Permanent Secretaries, you will appoint a new set and if they have come through the mill of the same Civil Service, some of them may still go back to that.
How do you see the fight against hard and illicit drugs in the country?
The fight is on course. We need good laboratories, improved legislations, strengthening of the Nigeria Drug Law Enforcement Agency, NDLEA, and ensure that it is established in rural areas.
What is your advice?
Government should take security very seriously because the first essence of government is the protection of lives and property. Nigeria is a great nation and we must put our hands together to build a better Nigeria.